New 2010 helmet rules for ORP

[86Fox]

As of this year, all helmets on the drag strip are to be full face.
Any car 13.99 or quicker and all convertibles will need helmets.
As every one auto crossing needs a helmet this won't affect anybody but those who still have open face helmets.

[otter]

That's probably going to be a problem for a lot of people. Many/most autocrossers will only use open-face helmets because full-face helmets are generally considered unsafe in cars equipped with airbags.

Somebody might need to have a conversation with ORP about this and explain issue.

[jhew84]

Or snag some loaner helmets for the event, I still need to get a new helmet so maybe I'll just end up with a full face.

[otter]

SCCA/NASA loaner helmets are all open-face.

[dflwrx]

Yeah, as these guys have mentioned that's a MAJOR issue for anyone that's coming to this event with an autocross/street car background.

They shouldn't even be allowing cars with airbags to run full face helmets on the strip, much less mandating it.

The event should go alright though as long as there are loaner helmets to pass through the grid...

[Ziggi]

i've got one of each

[otter]

i've got one of each

Same. An open-faced SA helmet for trackdays and a full face M helmet that I like to wear at autocrosses (has a dark visor, I hate wearing sunglasses with a helmet, the the risk of the airbag going off in most autocrosses is next to nil.)

This doesn't affect me, because I can't get anywhere near 13.99, so I won't have to wear a helmet at all, just saying it's going to be a big issue with a lot of the drivers because full face is proven to be less safe than open-face in a street car.

[dflwrx]

I wonder if I can fit a paintball face mask under my open face helmet :-P

[need4speed255]

What year snell rating is required on the track? I believe I was mis-informed last year about this.

As far as air bags being dangerous with full face helmets; is there detailed proof on this? I just cant see how an air bag is any worse than your helmet slamming the steering wheel. If the airbag explodes and travels all the way back to your face before your body begins to move forward I could see how it would be dangerous. Don't the airbags deploy clear of your face or a few inches in front of it. Then your face moves forward with momentum and contacts the airbag.

I could see problems with an incorrectly sized helmet as well. With a properly sized helmet, fastened properly, and an airbag that is not exploding on your face, I just can't see how it can be a risk.

I just thought that maybe helmets were not designed to hit things and your seatbelt is supposed to stop you from moving forward enough for a face plant. So then how about a motorcycle crash were your face hits the ground with a helmet?

[Smokedmustang]

I will bring 2 full face helmets for anyone to use. We will talk with the track again, to see.

[dflwrx]

What year snell rating is required on the track? I believe I was mis-informed last year about this.

As far as air bags being dangerous with full face helmets; is there detailed proof on this? I just cant see how an air bag is any worse than your helmet slamming the steering wheel. If the airbag explodes and travels all the way back to your face before your body begins to move forward I could see how it would be dangerous. Don't the airbags deploy clear of your face or a few inches in front of it. Then your face moves forward with momentum and contacts the airbag.

I could see problems with an incorrectly sized helmet as well. With a properly sized helmet, fastened properly, and an airbag that is not exploding on your face, I just can't see how it can be a risk.

I just thought that maybe helmets were not designed to hit things and your seatbelt is supposed to stop you from moving forward enough for a face plant. So then how about a motorcycle crash were your face hits the ground with a helmet?


The initial bulletin came out in 2004 (below) the FIA did some further assessment and determined that the full face helmets were generally fairly safe with the airbags, but as far as I've seen they haven't retracted the advisory about the increased risk for mandibular fractures. They have seemed to endorse, generally, the use of full face and open face helmets in production cars in later publications.

I think there is more information available from the FIA institute as well, but I'm too busy to track it down right now. Most of the subsequent data I've seen from the FIA has softened the initial stance against the full face helmets, some articles even endorsing them as equivalent or possibly superior to open face helmets, but I still think people racing production cars are more than justified in wanting to run open face helmets in airbag equipped vehicles, if on the basis of mandibular fracture being a plausible outcome if nothing else. I've dealt with a few patients after sustaining mandibular fractures and it's definitely not something I want to have to deal with. I think it makes a lot more sense to mandate full face helmets in an event like rally where the impacts tend to be a lot less predictable and can involve trees and all kinds of other objects/structures impacting the car in strange directions. The FIA/Rally America haven't mandated close face helmet use in rally events so it seems strange to me that they're being mandated on a drag strip lined with guard rails where impacts are far more predictable.

Release from the SCCA (quote from the FIA isn't necessarily their current stance):

"SCCA AIRBAG ADVISORY
November 16, 2004 - Notification from SCCA National Staff
It has been brought to the attention of SCCA Technical Services that the use of full-face or closed face helmets while driving vehicles with active airbag restraint systems may result in injuries in the event of a crash that deploys the airbag. Because of the location of the steering wheel relative to the driver's position, the airbag axis is on a level with the driver's chin. In a crash with airbag deployment, contact with the chin area of a full-face helmet can be so powerful "that fractures to the jaw cannot be ruled out". (Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute, FT3/AF, 18.5 1999)
Therefore it is highly recommended that full-face helmets not be used in vehicles with functioning airbag systems. Potentially more restrictive language is currently being considered for 2005."

[dflwrx]

I will bring 2 full face helmets for anyone to use. We will talk with the track again, to see.

I'll see if I can borrow any from the local SCCA region here. I think we have 1 full face loaner.

[Smokedmustang]

But Rob (otter) has a HUGE head, he needs an open faced one, because he can't fit his head in a full face one. lol (Inside joke from WWI)

[nicholas frost]

Does this mean that we need an SA2005 full face helmet this year if we run faster than a 13.99 in the drags?

Looks like I'm going to be running without any engine mods then.......I might get 2 runs before being booted.

Nick

[jhew84]

It's up in the air for me, one run I pulled a 12.9, the very next was a 14.3 :P, so who knows if I'll "need" a full face helmet or not lol.

[dflwrx]

I may just pick up a full face helmet since I have an aftermarket steering wheel now anyway...

[MachWon]

SCCA/NASA loaner helmets are all open-face.

MVSCC a NASA club has at least 2 closed face helmets. Maybe more by now. I'll check.

[Smokedmustang]

MVSCC a NASA club has at least 2 closed face helmets. Maybe more by now. I'll check.

That's one of the reasons your the Best Wonder Woman!! :rockon:

[Speedteacher]

RPM has a couple we could loan as well... as long as we get them back. :rockon:

[btwelch]

So open faced helmets are not allowed in the autocross portion either? Or does that just apply to the drag portion?

[mach03]

yes you can have open face in autocross:rockon:

[themitsubishifreak]

hi guys i did not see what the required certification for helmets are for the event? DOT,SNELL,SFI, K,M,ETC?? SORRY AND THANKS!

[cszink]

Where can you get a cheap full face helmet these days?

IByourlifeinstcheap

I only autocross and rallycross...I don't think I'm going to see any heavy impacts.

[Hardrvin]

Per O'Reillys website.

15. Convertibles must run with top up and driver MUST have a full face helmet meeting the SNELL, 2000 or 2005 rating.
18. All drivers running vehicles 13.99 or quicker MUST have a full face helmet meeting the SNELL, 2000 or 2005 rating.

I'd say it's a pretty safe assumption it must be M or better rated (so SA will pass as well).

Keep in mind that not all motorcycle helmets are Snell rated, the cheaper ones are typically DOT only.

[btwelch]

So if helmets are only needed on the dragstrip for convertibles and cars running faster than 13.99, why wouldnt the ORP guy tech me because "I didnt have my helmet"? The caddy runs a consistant 15.3 and obviously isnt a convertible. :think:

[Hardrvin]

Helmet required for all vehicles for autocross portion.

[btwelch]

I know that, and I passed my autocross tech, but the ORP guy wouldnt even look at my car as long as I didnt have a helmet.

[jhew84]

So if helmets are only needed on the dragstrip for convertibles and cars running faster than 13.99, why wouldnt the ORP guy tech me because "I didnt have my helmet"? The caddy runs a consistant 15.3 and obviously isnt a convertible. :think:

That is kind of weird, did you tell him that the car runs 15's?

[btwelch]

No I really didn't think about it until after I'd left.

[jhew84]

yeah, they let me run without seeing my helmet, I even told them it was an M95 and all he asked was how fast the car was. I told him it has done a 12.9 but that I likely wouldn't get out of the 13's and he just shrugged and said he would allow it, likely because I was just barely within the requirements for needing a helmet. They also tried to give me a little grief about my cam lock battery strap but there really was no way it was coming out of the battery box so they gave up.

Hopefully it all got sorted out, I think I remember seeing you run so I'm assuming it did.

[btwelch]

Yeah we got it sorted out. When I teched on saturday there was a different guy and he insisted that the reason they needed to see my helmet was because "with the wind blowing as hard as it is it may push a 15 second car into the 14's". The only way the wind was going to speed my car up that much was if a tornado picked it up and tossed it accross the line. Oh well, it all worked out in the end.

[need4speed255]

Yeah we got it sorted out. When I teched on saturday there was a different guy and he insisted that the reason they needed to see my helmet was because "with the wind blowing as hard as it is it may push a 15 second car into the 14's". The only way the wind was going to speed my car up that much was if a tornado picked it up and tossed it accross the line. Oh well, it all worked out in the end.

That guy tried but the wind was out of the west I believe(crosswind). Even if it was a direct tail wind I really doubt it would have had any measurable effect on your times.

[Yamaha]

now the prepping might have made a difference, but with it being that cold, i wouldn't count on it......heck, several people could have gone faster but couldn't hook up

[jhew84]

Yeah we got it sorted out. When I teched on saturday there was a different guy and he insisted that the reason they needed to see my helmet was because "with the wind blowing as hard as it is it may push a 15 second car into the 14's". The only way the wind was going to speed my car up that much was if a tornado picked it up and tossed it accross the line. Oh well, it all worked out in the end.

:rofl: what a joke, like the wind is going to knock over a second off someone's ET... Quick, someone go grab me an industrial sized shop fan, I need to run 10's!!!!!! Glad to hear it all worked out in the end though, would just be nicer without the hassle :rolleyes:.

I might have posted a slightly better time if it wasn't so cold, I was feathering first heavily and some of second, although I wasn't having near the traction issues a lot of the other A and TG guys were.

[Yamaha]

in the domestic E eliminations, my redline broke 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and I tried 4th and it was spinning 4th gear at the end of the 1/4.....lol

[need4speed255]

in the domestic E eliminations, my redline broke 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and I tried 4th and it was spinning 4th gear at the end of the 1/4.....lol

What! I think that was your clutch. I could see spinning in first, second, and maybe a chirp in 3rd but 4th. I bet the clutch was slipping.

[Yamaha]

What! I think that was your clutch. I could see spinning in first, second, and maybe a chirp in 3rd but 4th. I bet the clutch was slipping.

at the 1/4 mile stripe my speedo was registering 125mph.....it was wheel spin:lol:

[jhew84]

What are you running for tires?

[Yamaha]

What are you running for tires?

direzza star specs......lol

[need4speed255]

at the 1/4 mile stripe my speedo was registering 125mph.....it was wheel spin:lol:

I was just thinking that an E class car wouldn't have the power to do that. That takes a good amount of power to spin 3rd and especially 4th. What are you putting down power wise?

[Yamaha]

I was just thinking that an E class car wouldn't have the power to do that. That takes a good amount of power to spin 3rd and especially 4th. What are you putting down power wise?

the only times the car has been on a dyno, it put down 220whp on a mustang, 226whp on a dynojet, and 152whp on modified's dyno(that I feel had the resistance turned way up)....

The problem was, well worn star specs + open diff + no boost lag + cold + ORP = no grip whatsoever:duh:


with new tires, it grips ok....lol

[need4speed255]

A bit of a delay in your response time eh? :) Heck I am putting down more power than that and I can't even spin third. That's why I thought it sounded a little crazy. Thought it was clutch not tires. I was probably putting out about 250-270hp with an open diff and I can't spin in third. In the could winter it may spin third a tad but that's it. I think it would take about 300 hp to spin third and a bit more to spin in fourth.

[TheRude1]

Try some Bridgestone RE92's !

Youll spin them :rofl:

But they are easy on the drivetrane !